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张千帆:从尊严到宪政访谈影响力中国网

Reporter:These people who push at least, he wants to be outstripped to the benefits of a kind of rational and selfish individual.
Zhang Qian Fan :The pure reasonableness is selfish, a rat type of, mouse type of, right?Mouse should be have no principle, see me at present this food, how do I get?I can by fair means and foul get.The persons all have this kind of from a side of the benefit, this have no what can be rebuked of, the thinker of modern age has more liberal understanding to these problems.This kind of from the benefit, if our everybody can compare more likely scope in one, however the degree ground extends his/her own personal desires and infringes upon the other people's benefits.This kind of is the most beneficial to society from the benefit, everybody of"private" add is "male".
But, our meeting faces some so-called"prisoner predicament"s, the predicament of class action, the pure reasonableness is selfish to the predicament that we bring.I think that person of so distinguish with animal of most a little bit more basic, the person is a kind of morals animal.We of so can develop so high civilization, including material civilization, and this kind of morals, believe in inseparable.
The faith can be different, the west is a Christianity, and we are Confucianism, have plenty of Islamism.The nation with no some faith is that has no a hopeful nation.I feel Chinese society because the faith that didn't is similar to a western or some religion nation, the morals isn't so strong, cause we older spirit horizontal autumn, adept at scheming, result in such a citizen's community.Our traditional novels are like 《Three Kingdoms historical novel 》 these, he will teach you how among this society gain an advantage, how pass various account to strive for, but the actual Dou comes to Dou to go to, the whole race all in the down slope road.So, faith for break the predicament of our reasonableness is can not be little.
Reporter:Have a pretty interesting phenomenon:On talking morals faith now, many scholars who are more active than public space and opinion leader will say, you should are to talk system in this age and talk a rule of law, they will feel to talk that the morals is very empty, thinks that more things that is personal private area.
Zhang Qian Fan :But, I on the contrary feel to talk that the system is very empty now.
The definite system contains problem, this who all know, how go to and push system?In this nation, why who all dissatisfied to system, but system be still so, you use what explain?Whichever and concrete persons all know this system it's not good, but as for time that involve ourselves, still the darling ground follow this system to walk.Certainly there are a lot of other reason, but very important reason is that we didn't believe in, there is no right and wrong idea, can't feel that we do so what wrong or the in heart feel what indisposition, seem also pretty excusable of, system be so, everybody is doing so, I certainly is also do so.Is this it very typical 1 kind that lack a devotional performance?
In our nation, actually, being the slave is very rational, for example say with the parent who move the sons and daughters, I get in touch with with them more, these people are very irrational of, reasonableness of is those majority of silent persons.Because if they the bitterness bitterness push for 23 years, own very may of the sons and daughters have already missed, is as not completely related as they, does he still where push stem?Oneself still has risk and also is constantly subjected to otiose concern, you dry?According to the idea of pure reasonableness, should not anyone come out a push, everyone should "hitch a ride", the result of end is to have no then a car can take, because there is basically no car.This kind of prisoner predicament, I want to each civilization, each nation and have no place not at of.You don't have some morals right and wrong idea, this nation the nation that can be a mouse.
Reporter:Can speak so, a the whole set of personal right consciousness of the west, including"the economic person of the reasonableness" of modern economics is the faith and morals soil that plants a root at the west.At traditional Confucianism ethics already drive spade get clean of China, take out to leave its teachings virtuous and believe in, directly transplant this western right words, actually pretty terrible.
Zhang Qian Fan :To, I also wrote the different and similar of a thing study west and China recently.The morals of China learns with politics learn is integral whole since Confucianism of, it continues very much, the normal structure and form should be more continuous, political foundation is establishment at morals foundation on of, but west you will discover that it is partite, the morals principle is to a large extent the world of Christianity, you have no right over there, what right do you have in God's in front?You convict.
But, in the political realm or in the constitutional government realm, it is a pure liberalism, don't preach virtuous and obligation.But in the morals realm, it doesn't speak political right again, pure is all religious or is a worldly morals ethics.Our simply staring at eyes its political liberalism theory neglects very easily its political theory the underneath is to have obligation to make sustaining.
This and the reasonableness have no relational, you have to have this, this society must include a bottom limit morals and just probably revolve more rational.In fact, the reasonableness is tantamount to an establishment at the not- rational foundation on of, we must see this dialectical relation.
Reporter:The west superficially sees is what government teaches separate, but believe in actually is its foundation.Build up this system on this foundation, it is harmonious to will be being a kind of, positive way.
Zhang Qian Fan :I incline toward more to see them as is two complement each other, while don't necessarily religion must be the sill of western constitutional government, certainly someone lifts so.There is a little more some and very important principle in the constitutional government is to come from a religion, or the development very great degree of the western constitutional government is "the government taught separation" that comes from in the beginning.The religion is an independent power, it has the ability to check and supervision this nation, while we are here have no;Confucianism very great degree drive integrate among the movement of power go to, it much time is not enough is independent check and balance strength is this power to the check and supervision.These, I can approve, but you have to say to in brief speak, the religion is the foundation of constitutional government, that I feel this to too and in brief turn, this both are complement each other.Because politics or is the movement of constitutional government system to can't be without some faiths of bottom lines, but religion provide these faith foundations for it.
Reporter:The role that plays "social conscience" in the west society, church and faith group.However, our current China, a cake of in"social conscience" has imperfection.
Zhang Qian Fan :Rightness.You see in the late Ching dynasty clearly early history, you would discover China regardless is a political elite still a knowledge elite, the morals was still very strong of, is be not?Now, because this thing be exterminated, and Ma Lie can not become the theory principle that guides us again, it is also impractical, if space you explain it for the whole mankind's liberation, , too great, it not as so as Confucianism practicality, Confucianism basically still a set of for oneself philosophy, although it has high far ideal, it is have layer, have stairs, you can follow the sequence and advance gradually ground to develop your own morals ethics.
Reporter:You advocate to take dignity as a set of words system of core to act for to take personal right as central of words system, this will can't be thought Be getting more impractical?
Zhang Qian Fan :I feel that pouring a nothing important is impractical.In fact, dignity and right have no what very hypostatic differentiation, this both are to a great extent that layer after layer.Particularly in the political realm, the dignity is basically also right, because the nation is very strong, the dignity of maintenance individual is to support personal right freedom, that you must design 1 set to effectively guard against the mechanism that the national power goes bad.
Someone says in the constitutional government realm, what variety didn't seeming the dignity bring you?I feel to probably is really so.But in personal morals realm, it will emphasize our obligations more.Personal right is certainly also very important, but you can not neglect personal obligation, is the obligation that supports oneself's right at least at the same time.Otherwise of words, you will discover, our right usually even is infringed upon every day, but, you see have no a person will stand up to take what action.
So, I feel, right words at we among the daily life realm still not enough.Particularly is to sound at us, the right doesn't have a dignified morals obligation.
Reporter:Is it all right to say so:China in today sets out just from personal benefits or personal right, also the shortage allows a person to have enough power to defend his/her own rights.
Zhang Qian Fan :In the system more perfect nation, for example say that the judiciary circulates very good, when the government infringes upon your right, you as long as initiating public prosecution and then wenting, you also win in lawsuit very easily.
But at we this kind of system hasn't built up of time, maintain the rights to usually want to pay for it.Under this kind of environment, you pass a benefits to persuade him, usually is say impassability.Doing not act is the rational to him of, although his benefits has been damaged, because being the slave is very rational.
Reporter:Be like now some extreme sex affairses in the grass-roots conflict, for instance self-immolation.In mere mister's eyes, these people are all a little bit like the autumn chrysanthemum in 《the autumn chrysanthemum has a lawsuit 》 , "a Jin carry not and clearly".To these individuals, the benefits isn't a touch he(she) is all power of "a Jin is exactly", he(she) is to want a "parlance".
Zhang Qian Fan :To, I am to want to beg for a parlance with you, or say that he might also be to proceed from a benefits in the beginning, but the one step one step walks till now, he feels that he has already had no way out.If he backs, this is much more than a benefits problem, still the problem of a dignity.
The Chinese are to want a face very much.He feels that he can not back again, he backs(of words), may be sneered at by the person in the village, the meeting is laughed at by the government.The person of government organ will pass by his doorway to say:Appeal for higher authorities help again, how don't you appeal for higher authorities help.He may be felling like this, will make him very suffered.
Reporter:From"personal dignity", arrive "seek gold in rag" from the Confucianism, personal felling you are to just design a kind of customs for Chinese society religion.But, regardless is in China or in the world other places, the customs religion of artificial design can hardly promote.
Zhang Qian Fan :To, because Chinese tradition is a kind of customs to believe in, the Confucianism is a set of morals ethics system.
This is also the place that I feel that the Confucianism relatively has vitality.It is a kind of"for oneself philosophy", although is some to also talk very Gao Yuan, it is to have layer and have stairs, you can follow the sequence and advance gradually ground to develop your own morals ethics.Confucianism emphasizes "sex is originally kind", after effort in the day after tomorrow, you can become a "gentleman".Do gentleman to who good?He certainly cans make a lot of social contribute, but is him first good to himself.He he among the human nature the most beautiful good thing develop, he will be more self-confident, will live relatively have proud of feeling.Since to society good, at the same time he by himself also feel this whole life very substantial, of great value, you say that this has what not good?
This is our mankind more ideal kind of status:Make people seeing own of that kind of is highly respectable.I think that no one would like to be trampled, be humiliated, these aren't our human natures.If we let the child get in touch with education like this since the childhood, building so-called more aggressive and healthy character.
Reporter:Can return the knot to it for to ego of evaluation more Gao?
Zhang Qian Fan :This is a result.For example say me why want to talk of time, I should speak this sentence, may cause what result no matter.For example I want to organize an activity, may be subjected to some obstacles, but I want to make an effort the ground push it, not say to met rejection and then give up.Include me to exercise political right, the time that vote, I should go out a vote.Because Confucianism will tell you, if you don't do so, actually you are a slave on political, or you are in the peacetime behavior among the process is a coward, right?But you have no necessity to become you a slave by yourself, or coward, or petty thief.
Reporter:You go abroad at the beginning of 80's, actually whole adolescence spends in the United States.At this period, the religion and faith system of west, have much influence on your thinking observation and the observation?
Zhang Qian Fan :I feel my man's natural character still very a person of Confucianism, more introverted, more astringent of, outward of the activity ability isn't enough.What I got in touch with is all generally a colleague, friend, they in the middle some people are Christians, a very devout follower of a religion, I discover that they are all very good.The definite religion has very basic reformation to the person's personality and behavior, it can develop a very big function.
Reporter:The Lu is fast to once have very sharp ground of critique to Chinese citizens innate badnesses, cypress once criticized China as well of"sauce urn culture".For the innate badness of Chinese race, are you how to see?
Zhang Qian Fan :I feel is see what angle to speak national trait, this thing.If you speak material gene, we put an inside country kid to the abroad to keep, will also keep one is well-mannered of kid.From this meaning, I feel we at material gene last nothing important problem.But, we also have a kind of gene tradition on culture, a person lived in this society since the childhood and became familiar with to be subjected to much bad influence, or, some should get the aspect of growth, he didn't get full growth.The national trait is an among those kinds.This is also very important, because education function is a kind of basic path that mankind's civilization multiplies greatly, it is really as just about as our person's material gene, and very unprogressive, you are very difficult to change
I feel that the Chinese principle isn't strong.Should say, the Chinese also all have morals.But, this kind of will of ours also good, the dignity is also good, not enough be good enough to prop up our behavior, meet some resistances, obstacle and pressure, very quick will lose power, shrink back, can't insist oneself again.Have a kind of"gene", I also not say, there is also the judgment that the friend's behavior for speaking our mankind very great degree proceeds from a kind of intuition.Seeming our fellings is very easily drive ruler change, thou book speak "Chu's Wang Hao's slender waist, starve more in the temple", together the king likes to be purple, a country all the dress is purple.Arriving Sung is clear, develop women to bind small feet, you say that the person's body passes by is the distortion like this very and ugly, how can think that it is beautiful?
This exactly is why?Can the likes and dislikes of king or ruler so easily change our to appreciate beauty judgment?Is this kind of mindset of ours some abnormal states?There is a social evolutionist a little bit for certain thinking, our evolutions have a little a problem, can literally change around.Probably we are some places of inborn shortage, also very difficult distinction what is a material up, what is culture up.Some things keep on on culture long, probably true become material of ascend, probably Chinese life come become to relatively obey.Today, we feel very obviously China with greatly flows, and the person of breeze is specially many.
Reporter:But you still keep believing, in a good system or in the good cultural environment, Chinese still can compare to have is an individual dignity.
Zhang Qian Fan :To, because the Chinese are all kinder, this we all admit.But sometimes this kind of docile if saying is exorbitant, on the contrary will harm the whole race, became a kind of cowardice and timidity, can't insist, there is no the right and wrong concept of value of oneself's independence, the ruler says what that be what, so-called"docile" like this changed in character, isn't a docile, but a kind of innate badness.
Reporter:Remember you used a phrase that has much of a religious color, "everybody carries on the back a cross of his what lies in one's power".
Zhang Qian Fan :Yes, the Christianity is to let the Jesus carry on the back the cross for whole mankind, the Confucianism then wants to promote everybody and lets everybody carries on the back his/her owns the cross.However I wanted to put forward 1 to criticize to the Confucianism here, it gave up this ideal afterwards and thought that doing gentleman is certainly good, but actually only a handful of men can become gentleman, a most people is still a mean person.I think that the Confucianism should carry it through sex kind theory and convert everybody into gentleman, equal to let he the back rise moral of the cross.You do gentleman to definitely take, but this is unequal to you to become a hero, a person sacrifices and undertakes all weights of the cross for the sake of the whole society.
Reportero an officials want to carry on the back what kind of the cross in China?It is that the person whom an is negative to eliminate a system, wants to hard do some matter was very easy and then was eliminated to bowl out to particularly is the system in nowadays.
Zhang Qian Fan :The officials' cross should weigh more.The system is a chief criminal, but system no one's propping up is also nothing doing.Our woes are to have no dignity now.I feel that is ex- there are minority in a few officials still relatively have mission consciousness and sense of responsibility, now, the great majorities all do in a perfunctory ground to muddle through time.
In Confucianism's eyes, this is to have no face very much, hold official post an equal to robber so, because you do a leadership, you should work well work, but what do you exactly do for this nation?This with steal a national treasury where is the difference?May still have to be what a mess than this.So say, I think if have the dignity feeling of a little Confucianism, they should not adopt this behavior method, or satisfy he now at do of, he should be able to do betterly than this.
Reporter:"Doctor Shi's spirit" that shines on Confucianism, you are put on the position of participation"cure world", but you don't undertake a homologous responsibility again.
Zhang Qian Fan :Rightness.
Reporter:In this ages, what is one of your the cross ?
Zhang Qian Fan :This problem should is easy to Confucianism, it this thing is to set a role for everybody.You are a father at home noodles, you have the father's obligation, the son has the son's obligation, does the wife have a cuckoldry obligation and rights?So everybody likes own role play.The duty exerted again say another.You only exert duty, just can start enjoying right, otherwise you have no right.
As a scholar, my duty everyone know.
Reporter:The Zhao book signs to make, teach to teach a person, besides which, push a constitutional government in China, is a more heavy cross?
Zhang Qian Fan ush a constitutional government, that is to a great extent that and really also my occupation, if say that the thing that you teach this lifetime is false, that set of thing that uses no matter, that you also pretty fail.
So, I say while doing my own affair, is to society good, certainly first is also to myself good.At least work well my own affair possibly and otherwise I will feel that I lets  himself/herself down.If say that the person lives this lifetime and finally gets this felling, that is a person who pretty fails to living.
Reporter:You at for constitutional government in advance Mr. Cai Ding Jian write of grieve over an article inside, prosperous great he isn't an empty speculation concept, but the application that earnestly practices a ground of concern constitution in the concrete reality, you specially quote from one of his words-"where have a life, where have constitution".How big don't I know him to one of your influence?
Zhang Qian Fan :I and he is very close by on the thought, all hope to make the constitution falling the solid place can possibly.He once wrote an article at that time, I remembered in《south weekend 》 , topic call 《constitution is went fetch to use of 》 , this headline rises also very goodly.Constitution is much more than our teach-book-smith to speak here how to explain, or is invent a constitution theory.
The constitution is the most basic, is want to carry out to be social of among the concrete life.
Reporter:Chinese method educational circles contains a lot of type scholars, like be like Mr. He Wei Fang, he faces to people more more, before we once covered Wang Ren Bo as well, he limits own satge in the classroom.Do you give your own fixed position?
Zhang Qian Fan :I feel I's to the utmost a dint, oneself should do of work well, first is we originally the officers and workers make, the research, teaching works well.We have a class actually is also deliver a kind of constitution principle to the student.After these work well, if having energy can pay attention to some concrete constitution problems and see how push constitution to slowly develop a larger effect in the reality.I feel that all of these am to do, see personal ability, interest, so I am to have no a very explicit fixed position.
Chinese society gets into to this stage, will appear a lot of constitution problems, the constitution scholar should not only limit at studio, more fulfillments that want to concentrate on constitution.Because we are different from another nation, they that system have been already modeled and circulate have been very agreeable.We now not just so, and the people probably know not much to the constitution, the officials may know constitution, but would not like to carry out constitution.So, be like our knowledge member, particularly the scholar who concentrates on a constitutional government, should develop a larger function in the universality or publicity of the constitution.
Reporter:There is the problem of an ultimate end color here.You say that everybody wants to carry on the back a cross, but, why am I going to carry on the back this cross?
Zhang Qian Fan :Because it is yours.Confucianism speaks that everybody has the cross to belong to oneself, that is own kind.You can not give up and give up is a mean person.This cross is to say, among your human nature have highly respectable thing, you have to let you over fair to the life of oneself dignity.Speak from the angle of west certainly, that expresses that you had right, you have "human rights":You can freely talk, you can own property, the body freedom of your someone....
But speak for the Confucianism, this also expresses that you have obligation to guard own of highly respectable, not the ability is self-abandonment.If you don't have this highly respectable thing, that person is similar to mouse, talk not and up what obligation-also talk not and up right actually.But the person after all isn't a mouse.We all starve 30,000,000 people to mean to"great leap forward" it's grieved.If what to starve is 30,000,000 mice, who will feel grieved?It is thus clear that even if in the our eyes, in spite of we how not chase we be return to matter, person after all than mouse highly respectable.
(The text is 《southern person weekly magazine 》 the interview Zhang Qian Fan of reporter, Xu Lin Ling, teaches of original text full text.)
                                                                     
Source:southern person weekly magazine
                                                                                                         
                                     Editor:Zhu Li Juan                                                                       
                                                                    
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